Discussion:
DigitalMars' GSoC application has been rejected
(too old to reply)
Andrei Alexandrescu
2014-02-27 02:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Unfortunately we won't participate in GSoC this year. The decision was
not surprising - our application has been rejected.

Sadly there are lots of things we could have done better. Our
application has been a low-priority side job for Walter and myself and
as such its quality has suffered greatly.

GSoC applications are a great example of things where one or more
community members can have a large impact on D's well being by
offloading a parallelizable work from the two of us.

Please consider taking a leadership role for GSoC 2015.


Andrei
Iain Buclaw
2014-02-27 07:14:49 UTC
Permalink
On 27 February 2014 02:34, Andrei Alexandrescu
Unfortunately we won't participate in GSoC this year. The decision was not
surprising - our application has been rejected.
Sadly there are lots of things we could have done better. Our application
has been a low-priority side job for Walter and myself and as such its
quality has suffered greatly.
GSoC applications are a great example of things where one or more community
members can have a large impact on D's well being by offloading a
parallelizable work from the two of us.
Please consider taking a leadership role for GSoC 2015.
I was just wondering what was happening and assumed that this was the
case last night. Thanks for confirming.

Regards
Iain
Craig Dillabaugh
2014-02-27 18:10:33 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 02:34:53 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Unfortunately we won't participate in GSoC this year. The
decision was not surprising - our application has been rejected.
Sadly there are lots of things we could have done better. Our
application has been a low-priority side job for Walter and
myself and as such its quality has suffered greatly.
GSoC applications are a great example of things where one or
more community members can have a large impact on D's well
being by offloading a parallelizable work from the two of us.
Please consider taking a leadership role for GSoC 2015.
Andrei
How much time did you spend on the application this year? How
much time do you think would be needed to put together a good
quality proposal?
Andrei Alexandrescu
2014-02-27 18:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Unfortunately we won't participate in GSoC this year. The decision was
not surprising - our application has been rejected.
Sadly there are lots of things we could have done better. Our
application has been a low-priority side job for Walter and myself and
as such its quality has suffered greatly.
GSoC applications are a great example of things where one or more
community members can have a large impact on D's well being by
offloading a parallelizable work from the two of us.
Please consider taking a leadership role for GSoC 2015.
Andrei
How much time did you spend on the application this year? How much time
do you think would be needed to put together a good quality proposal?
Walter and I pleaded that the other completes the application, with me
saying I don't have the time and him saying he's not suited for the job.
In the end I "won" and he spent a couple of hours drafting a proposal,
which was indeed bad. I spent maybe an hour a late evening trying to
improve the proposal and that was about it. Made no page on dlang.org
and did nothing on the wiki ideas page (which I think was weak as well).

But sheer time spent is not essential here as the availability of mental
cycles. When I do something right I think of it in small quanta all the
time - showering, walking, running, whatever. So by the time I sit down
to work on it I have ideas and plans already formed. The GSoC was the
exact opposite - unprepared "todo" work vying for attention at the
periphery of an already overflowing plate. There's no way I could have
done a good job at it.

For better or worse Walter and I are the bottlenecks on a lot of
D-related stuff. (Just look at http://goo.gl/jGYzir which is developing
a nice tenure as a tab in my web browser.) Kenji wrote me an email
months ago asking for my take on DIP49, and has done a lot of legwork
before I came back to him saying we need a radical simplification. No
wonder he wouldn't answer my emails. Whenever anything comes, I need to
act "managerial" - absorb context quickly, make a decision, delegate
details, move on.

There's just too much important AND urgent stuff going on right now in
D, which gives a whole other perspective on the people who advise us on
how to do things better, to dissolve into the shrubs when a very
concrete opportunity to do something. From that angle, every single
little thing that's "parallelizable" and off our plate (such as build
system, auto tester, release management, GSoC, and such) is a double
improvement for the language as a whole: once because that part gets
done better, and twice because it frees us to better focus on other
things. Concretely: there wasn't much time to work on allocators lately...


Thanks,

Andrei
Craig Dillabaugh
2014-02-27 19:11:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 18:47:37 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 02:34:53 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Unfortunately we won't participate in GSoC this year. The
decision was
not surprising - our application has been rejected.
Sadly there are lots of things we could have done better. Our
application has been a low-priority side job for Walter and
myself and
as such its quality has suffered greatly.
GSoC applications are a great example of things where one or
more
community members can have a large impact on D's well being by
offloading a parallelizable work from the two of us.
Please consider taking a leadership role for GSoC 2015.
Andrei
How much time did you spend on the application this year? How much time
do you think would be needed to put together a good quality
proposal?
Walter and I pleaded that the other completes the application,
with me saying I don't have the time and him saying he's not
suited for the job. In the end I "won" and he spent a couple of
hours drafting a proposal, which was indeed bad. I spent maybe
an hour a late evening trying to improve the proposal and that
was about it. Made no page on dlang.org and did nothing on the
wiki ideas page (which I think was weak as well).
But sheer time spent is not essential here as the availability
of mental cycles. When I do something right I think of it in
small quanta all the time - showering, walking, running,
whatever. So by the time I sit down to work on it I have ideas
and plans already formed. The GSoC was the exact opposite -
unprepared "todo" work vying for attention at the periphery of
an already overflowing plate. There's no way I could have done
a good job at it.
For better or worse Walter and I are the bottlenecks on a lot
of D-related stuff. (Just look at http://goo.gl/jGYzir which is
developing a nice tenure as a tab in my web browser.) Kenji
wrote me an email months ago asking for my take on DIP49, and
has done a lot of legwork before I came back to him saying we
need a radical simplification. No wonder he wouldn't answer my
emails. Whenever anything comes, I need to act "managerial" -
absorb context quickly, make a decision, delegate details, move
on.
There's just too much important AND urgent stuff going on right
now in D, which gives a whole other perspective on the people
who advise us on how to do things better, to dissolve into the
shrubs when a very concrete opportunity to do something. From
that angle, every single little thing that's "parallelizable"
and off our plate (such as build system, auto tester, release
management, GSoC, and such) is a double improvement for the
language as a whole: once because that part gets done better,
and twice because it frees us to better focus on other things.
Concretely: there wasn't much time to work on allocators
lately...
Thanks,
Andrei
One more question. Do you feel this is a job that someone who
isn't necessarily well versed in the various technologies could
take on (in a sort of manager role), or would you need someone
who has the expertise to evaluate various proposals.
Andrei Alexandrescu
2014-02-27 21:37:04 UTC
Permalink
One more question. Do you feel this is a job that someone who isn't
necessarily well versed in the various technologies could take on (in a
sort of manager role), or would you need someone who has the expertise
to evaluate various proposals.
Any motivated individual with little to moderate expertise can do it.
The application is for the most part filling forms and creating prose. A
person who's on top of things can prod contributors into submitting
ideas, rally mentors, make sure the related web pages are in good shape,
etc. etc. etc. To put things into perspective, we could have missed the
deadline if the thing didn't bubble up to my level of consciousness.

Andrei
Craig Dillabaugh
2014-02-27 21:42:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 21:37:03 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
One more question. Do you feel this is a job that someone who
isn't
necessarily well versed in the various technologies could take on (in a
sort of manager role), or would you need someone who has the
expertise
to evaluate various proposals.
Any motivated individual with little to moderate expertise can
do it. The application is for the most part filling forms and
creating prose. A person who's on top of things can prod
contributors into submitting ideas, rally mentors, make sure
the related web pages are in good shape, etc. etc. etc. To put
things into perspective, we could have missed the deadline if
the thing didn't bubble up to my level of consciousness.
Andrei
In that case, as Yoda would say:

Volunteer to prepare GSoC 2015 proposal I shall.

Do you have copies of past submissions as a guideline, or is it
just what is on the Wiki.
Andrei Alexandrescu
2014-02-27 21:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
One more question. Do you feel this is a job that someone who isn't
necessarily well versed in the various technologies could take on (in a
sort of manager role), or would you need someone who has the expertise
to evaluate various proposals.
Any motivated individual with little to moderate expertise can do it.
The application is for the most part filling forms and creating prose.
A person who's on top of things can prod contributors into submitting
ideas, rally mentors, make sure the related web pages are in good
shape, etc. etc. etc. To put things into perspective, we could have
missed the deadline if the thing didn't bubble up to my level of
consciousness.
Andrei
Volunteer to prepare GSoC 2015 proposal I shall.
Do you have copies of past submissions as a guideline, or is it just
what is on the Wiki.
Congratulations and good luck! Stay tuned to the general GSoC process
and I hope you'll be around in December :o).

Google doesn't save past submissions. We have our older gsoc pages on
dlang.org and the wiki. I think Walter saved some form data.


Andrei
Craig Dillabaugh
2014-02-27 22:03:25 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 21:59:37 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 21:37:03 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
One more question. Do you feel this is a job that someone
who isn't
necessarily well versed in the various technologies could
take on (in a
sort of manager role), or would you need someone who has the expertise
to evaluate various proposals.
Any motivated individual with little to moderate expertise
can do it.
The application is for the most part filling forms and
creating prose.
A person who's on top of things can prod contributors into
submitting
ideas, rally mentors, make sure the related web pages are in
good
shape, etc. etc. etc. To put things into perspective, we
could have
missed the deadline if the thing didn't bubble up to my level of
consciousness.
Andrei
Volunteer to prepare GSoC 2015 proposal I shall.
Do you have copies of past submissions as a guideline, or is
it just
what is on the Wiki.
Congratulations and good luck! Stay tuned to the general GSoC
process and I hope you'll be around in December :o).
Google doesn't save past submissions. We have our older gsoc
pages on dlang.org and the wiki. I think Walter saved some form
data.
Andrei
I will try to keep an eye on what the successful projects do this
summer, that may give me so ideas.
Brad Roberts
2014-02-27 22:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
Volunteer to prepare GSoC 2015 proposal I shall.
Do you have copies of past submissions as a guideline, or is it just
what is on the Wiki.
Congratulations and good luck! Stay tuned to the general GSoC process
and I hope you'll be around in December :o).
Google doesn't save past submissions. We have our older gsoc pages on
dlang.org and the wiki. I think Walter saved some form data.
Andrei
I will try to keep an eye on what the successful projects do this
summer, that may give me so ideas.
Also, keep in mind that GSoC is pretty much two things:

1) a nice little pay check for students
2) a bit of structure around getting work done

We can still do #2 without #1. And we don't need google to make it
happen. How about trying a practice run despite not having google
tossing in the funding?
Craig Dillabaugh
2014-02-27 23:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Roberts
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 21:59:37 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
Volunteer to prepare GSoC 2015 proposal I shall.
Do you have copies of past submissions as a guideline, or is it just
what is on the Wiki.
Congratulations and good luck! Stay tuned to the general GSoC process
and I hope you'll be around in December :o).
Google doesn't save past submissions. We have our older gsoc
pages on
dlang.org and the wiki. I think Walter saved some form data.
Andrei
I will try to keep an eye on what the successful projects do
this
summer, that may give me so ideas.
1) a nice little pay check for students
2) a bit of structure around getting work done
We can still do #2 without #1. And we don't need google to
make it happen. How about trying a practice run despite not
having google tossing in the funding?
So you mean D Summer of Code?

I had actually been thinking of proposing having a D mentoring
program. Similar to:

https://community.kde.org/Getinvolved/development
(at the bottom)

Experienced D developers, who feel they could use
on a specific project, or who would be otherwise interested in
taking on an 'apprentice' could list projects they would like
to see someone take on. Interested developers could browse
through and see if any of the proposed projects piqued their
interest.

However, that doesn't entirely fulfill #2 in your list.
The 'student' needs some motivation to complete the project
I suppose. Perhaps a DConf T-shirt autographed by Walter and
Andrei or something :o)
Mike
2014-02-28 03:42:11 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 23:21:29 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
https://community.kde.org/Getinvolved/development
(at the bottom)
Experienced D developers, who feel they could use
on a specific project, or who would be otherwise interested in
taking on an 'apprentice' could list projects they would like
to see someone take on. Interested developers could browse
through and see if any of the proposed projects piqued their
interest.
IMO this is EXACTLY what this effort needs. I don't know what
happened to the apprenticeship custom, but it needs a
comeback...badly. This is a great idea. The apprentices this
year will likely become the mentors of next year, and it will
only accelerate.

Make a wiki page to get started. Post an announcement. People
may be apprehensive at first, but I think it will catch on. If
it doesn't, no harm done.
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
However, that doesn't entirely fulfill #2 in your list.
The 'student' needs some motivation to complete the project
I suppose. Perhaps a DConf T-shirt autographed by Walter and
Andrei or something :o)
I would do it simply for the benefit of education. Lord knows
it'd be a better return on my investment than an overpriced
university. It would also help my career to say that I worked
under some of the prominent names in this community.

Mentors would benefit as well. I'm sure Iain would love some
help doing the 2.065.0 merge, yes? They would learn some
valuable leadership skills as well, and may actually enjoy the
experience. I greatly enjoyed the little mentoring I've done in
my career.

I can only see good things coming out of such an effort, if it
takes hold. It's a superb idea.

Mike
Brad Roberts
2014-02-28 18:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
Post by Brad Roberts
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 21:59:37 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
Volunteer to prepare GSoC 2015 proposal I shall.
Do you have copies of past submissions as a guideline, or is it just
what is on the Wiki.
Congratulations and good luck! Stay tuned to the general GSoC process
and I hope you'll be around in December :o).
Google doesn't save past submissions. We have our older gsoc pages on
dlang.org and the wiki. I think Walter saved some form data.
Andrei
I will try to keep an eye on what the successful projects do this
summer, that may give me so ideas.
1) a nice little pay check for students
2) a bit of structure around getting work done
We can still do #2 without #1. And we don't need google to make it
happen. How about trying a practice run despite not having google
tossing in the funding?
So you mean D Summer of Code?
I had actually been thinking of proposing having a D mentoring
https://community.kde.org/Getinvolved/development
(at the bottom)
Experienced D developers, who feel they could use
on a specific project, or who would be otherwise interested in
taking on an 'apprentice' could list projects they would like
to see someone take on. Interested developers could browse
through and see if any of the proposed projects piqued their
interest.
However, that doesn't entirely fulfill #2 in your list.
The 'student' needs some motivation to complete the project
I suppose. Perhaps a DConf T-shirt autographed by Walter and
Andrei or something :o)
Call it whatever you want.. Ideally it's not a specific one time (or
recurring) event, but rather the normal way development happens.
Someone wants to help, so they do. There's already appropriate mailing
lists / forums / newsgroups for interaction. There's lots of work to be
done. What's needed is people to step up. Adding a little structure
and making it known that the help is available is all good and would
likely help tip more people from thinking about it into doing it.

The appropriate forum / mailing lists:
dmd-internals
D-runtime
phobos
D.gnu
digitalmars.D.ldc

All of which are available via forum.dlang.org or lists.puremagic.com.
All of which contain multiple people who are generally very eager to help.

Following bug reports and pull requests and watching how fixes and
changes are made is also a pretty good way to learn about the code base.
If the commits and code changes don't make sense, feel free to ask the
submitter (via private email or publicly on the appropriate forum,
preferably the latter) to help explain the change -- chances are more
comments would be useful to more than just the asker.

As to motivation, personally, I'm not sure we want someone who isn't
self motivated. That said, I recognize that sometimes it takes a little
something extra to incent getting past the learning curve which can be
daunting for any project. I find that financial incentives, like GSoC,
tend to attract that disappear shortly after the incentive is removed.
The group of people that contribute today are all volunteers, up to and
including Walter and Andrei. Some have agreements with their employers
to spend work time in various amounts, but that's the exception rather
than the rule.

My 2 cents,
Brad
Mathias LANG
2014-02-27 23:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Roberts
We can still do #2 without #1. And we don't need google to
make it happen. How about trying a practice run despite not
having google tossing in the funding?
If someone would want to contribute, what would be the right
person to contact, or the right resource to turn to ?

I was looking to fix a (probably simple) bug in DMD but it's
quite hard to grok
(http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DMDSourceGuide helps but
it's a bit outdated).
Also, searching contributing in the wiki only yield GDC / LDC
links.
Andrei Alexandrescu
2014-02-28 05:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Roberts
We can still do #2 without #1. And we don't need google to make it
happen. How about trying a practice run despite not having google
tossing in the funding?
If someone would want to contribute, what would be the right person to
contact, or the right resource to turn to ?
Probably kickstarter or similar would be a good possibility for
well-defined projects of broad interest.

Andrei
Bruno Medeiros
2014-03-03 14:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brad Roberts
1) a nice little pay check for students
2) a bit of structure around getting work done
I would say it's one more thing too: Being able to say you participated
in GSoC (for your resume/credentials, or just bragging rights). For a
student and future graduate, I would say that is valuable, for some
students perhaps even more than the monetary rewards.
--
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros
Mike
2014-02-28 01:02:09 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 18:47:37 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
For better or worse Walter and I are the bottlenecks on a lot
of D-related stuff.
I would really like to help with this, and (I think) others would
too.

The ideas for GSoC 2015 could start now. I took the liberty of
adding the ideas page (http://wiki.dlang.org/GSOC_2015_Ideas).
Add your ideas today! Deadlines, call for mentors, link to GSoC
application instructions should all be added now, if possible.

Help me help you:
The recent "CONTRIBUTING.md" for DLang.org helped me make a few
updates to neglected areas of the website, and I have more coming.

The GDC Project Ideas page
(http://wiki.dlang.org/GDC/ProjectIdeas) helped me add a little
value to that project. I revisit it periodically to find out
"What can I do today?"

I realize the last thing you need is another suggestion, but
perhaps something like these could be created for the D effort as
a whole. For example, what needs to be done to help prepare for
DConf 2014?

Mike

P.S. Forgive me if all this has been beaten to death before. My
sincere thanks for all you and Walter have done to give us D.
I'm hoping for a career changer with this language. God knows I
need one.
Craig Dillabaugh
2014-02-28 03:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 18:47:37 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
For better or worse Walter and I are the bottlenecks on a lot
of D-related stuff.
I would really like to help with this, and (I think) others
would too.
The ideas for GSoC 2015 could start now. I took the liberty of
adding the ideas page (http://wiki.dlang.org/GSOC_2015_Ideas).
Add your ideas today! Deadlines, call for mentors, link to
GSoC application instructions should all be added now, if
possible.
The recent "CONTRIBUTING.md" for DLang.org helped me make a few
updates to neglected areas of the website, and I have more
coming.
The GDC Project Ideas page
(http://wiki.dlang.org/GDC/ProjectIdeas) helped me add a little
value to that project. I revisit it periodically to find out
"What can I do today?"
I realize the last thing you need is another suggestion, but
perhaps something like these could be created for the D effort
as a whole. For example, what needs to be done to help prepare
for DConf 2014?
Mike
P.S. Forgive me if all this has been beaten to death before. My
sincere thanks for all you and Walter have done to give us D.
I'm hoping for a career changer with this language. God knows
I need one.
Thanks for setting up the idea's page for GSoC 2015, that is a
start.
As you suggested it would be good to have a general "Help Wanted"
page, possibly with links to willing mentors. It would seem to
add some
such thing to the Wiki, possibly under the "Get Involved"
section, then
role some of these ideas into the GSoC projects.
Dejan Lekic
2014-03-04 11:13:31 UTC
Permalink
I am quite sure I will have time for this, next year. We'll keep
in touch.
Craig Dillabaugh
2014-03-04 13:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dejan Lekic
I am quite sure I will have time for this, next year. We'll
keep in touch.
I had also expressed and interest in helping out with this, as
had at least one other poster (Mike I think). While 2015 is
still a good way off perhaps we should come up with a plan as to
how we can work together so as not to duplicate effort.

I always access these forums through the web-interface. Is there
a way to look up the email addresses of my fellow posters?
Joakim
2014-03-13 10:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
Post by Dejan Lekic
I am quite sure I will have time for this, next year. We'll
keep in touch.
I had also expressed and interest in helping out with this, as
had at least one other poster (Mike I think). While 2015 is
still a good way off perhaps we should come up with a plan as
to how we can work together so as not to duplicate effort.
I always access these forums through the web-interface. Is
there a way to look up the email addresses of my fellow posters?
The web interface for the mailing list includes email addresses:

http://lists.puremagic.com/pipermail/digitalmars-d-announce/2014-March/date.html

Also, I think if you log into the webforum, it might have a link
for the raw posting source including email addresses, but I don't
log in so I can't say for sure.
Craig Dillabaugh
2014-03-13 21:13:18 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, 4 March 2014 at 13:40:30 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh
Post by Craig Dillabaugh
Post by Dejan Lekic
I am quite sure I will have time for this, next year. We'll
keep in touch.
I had also expressed and interest in helping out with this, as
had at least one other poster (Mike I think). While 2015 is
still a good way off perhaps we should come up with a plan as
to how we can work together so as not to duplicate effort.
I always access these forums through the web-interface. Is
there a way to look up the email addresses of my fellow
posters?
http://lists.puremagic.com/pipermail/digitalmars-d-announce/2014-March/date.html
Also, I think if you log into the webforum, it might have a
link for the raw posting source including email addresses, but
I don't log in so I can't say for sure.
Thanks for that link. I use the web forum exclusively, and I am
usually logged in when I post, and I couldn't seem to find a
email addresses for other posters.

Denis Koroskin
2014-03-12 20:43:46 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, 27 February 2014 at 02:34:53 UTC, Andrei
Post by Andrei Alexandrescu
Unfortunately we won't participate in GSoC this year. The
decision was not surprising - our application has been rejected.
Sadly there are lots of things we could have done better. Our
application has been a low-priority side job for Walter and
myself and as such its quality has suffered greatly.
GSoC applications are a great example of things where one or
more community members can have a large impact on D's well
being by offloading a parallelizable work from the two of us.
Please consider taking a leadership role for GSoC 2015.
Andrei
In 2013 KolibriOS, an open-source Operation System written in
Assembly, applied for GSoC and was rejected as well. They went to
Kickstarter, and raised money for their own SoC:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kolibrios/kolibrios-help-us-hold-our-own-summer-of-code-2013/

Should we try doing the same for D?
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